beta readers wanted

[kailhofer]

I've got a novel that I finished 10 years ago that I'd like to get some private opinions on. It is a contemporary fantasy adventure called The House of the Warbled Witch, and is close to 80,000 words. It is about a twenty-something witch, her brother, the little girl from the broom closet, and a very confused dragon trying to find and keep a magical treasure from a demon who would do some pretty awful things with it. Obviously, it has some comedic overtones, but is not a comedy per se.

It was rejected back in '03-04 by just about everybody who is anybody.

Every few years I dust it off, tweak and rewrite it some more, telling myself that it is too good to languish in a drawer. Well, I need to know if it really is crap or not from some people whose opinions I trust. If it's not crap, then I need to give the publishing world the full court press until somebody buys it and get back to the unfinished sequel. If it isn't good enough to make it, maybe I'll self-publish it as an ebook or something, where I won't mind if people only pay 2 bucks for it. Anyway, then I can focus my energies on something else of larger scope.

So, if anyone is interested in giving it a read and telling me their honest opinion within the next two months, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you a version of it in whatever format works best for you.

I'm looking for an evaluation, not editing, but only do it if you're willing to tell me the truth--I need to hear the harsh realities of it.


Nate

[kailhofer]

There's really a lot here and in the emails I've gotten. Too much to respond to all at once.

I want to thank everyone who gave me input. I think some of it is spot on, some dead wrong, and the rest probably true. However, only a fool would dismiss advice freely given, especially from folks "in the biz", or working at being "in the biz". A lot of it I need to let sit in my consciousness until pride calms down a bit to take a really clear look.

One thing I would discuss, as it would be of value to others as well, is word count. I did a lot of research about this when I was writing it, and the target total then was deliberately chosen at 80K. There's a really good blog here that explains it better than me. The comments afterwards are good too.

So on that point, I disagree with Tao on how long the book should be.

[kailhofer]

Here is something to consider. Nate published many authors of Aphelion in a physical, tangible book. Now he desires help reviewing his current book project. Shouldn't each of those authors who benefited from his labors step up to offer their time and labor to assist him in return?

In addition, those who have grown as writers during the flash challenges, should they not offer feedback for his current publishing interest?

Mark

I would never expect all 35? authors from the challenges to read the book. That's quite all right. I'm not trying to write by committee, anyway, which is what I'd be afraid I'd get.

I'd be happier if they'd all vote on the challenges instead, but that is a whole other can of worms.


I think you and Tao are right, though, that I should approach it from a YA, contemporary fantasy marketing viewpoint despite some of the subject matter. That market is a lot more open to dark topics than it used to be. I was always stuck a little in that the heroes need to be old enough to do certain things, like own a house and drive, and yet be young enough to be the heroes.

[kailhofer]

Something Tao told me in an email I thought was an interesting idea to talk through here, especially with people who've read it, was the notion of changing the year it is set in. He suggested like 1925. He pointed out that no one was calling about stuff on their cell phones or posting on the internet. In the book, things happen at night, during storms, or when no one is looking... and I imply that maybe people in the town a just a bit dim, too, when it comes to noticing something outside the box of normal life.

On the one hand, no one snaps a picture of Harry Potter on their cell and everybody is fine with that... not being observed is a part of the contemporary fantasy genre, after all. So on that regard, it's normal. But Tao has a point. It's hard to explain away that the heroes were in a magical battle that didn't get posted on YouTube.

Of course... if it was on YouTube, everyone would think it was fakery like so much you see there, even if it went viral.

How would the story read in the 1920s, or the Great Depression, or the 50s, or even the 70s? I was a little kid in the 1970s, so I should know a lot about that, but the time certainly didn't feel very "magical". It does really put a different spin on it, a potentially interesting one.

But then there's marketing (i.e. getting an agent to recognize where to sell it). If it's in the 1950s, what market is that? Just YA fantasy?

What do you folks feel is the latest year magic in real life feels possible?

[Lester Curtis]

I'd say the word count thing is partly publishing-house trend, and partly guideline (as opposed to strict rule). I read the blog Nate linked to, though, and now I'm worried. My project is only (I'm guessing) about half done, and the word count is about 125,000. And, for the life of me, I can't think of a neat way to break it into two separate books. I could break it into THREE separate books, but then I'd definitely need to bulk up the first one by quite a bit.

Lucky me, I can forget about all this for a while; at the rate it's going, it'll be maybe another two years before I finish it.

Nate -- again, I'll say 'guideline.' It seems pretty nearly unanimous that your story should be aimed at the juvenile and/or YA market, and the Harry Potters were pretty hefty. Do the revisions you want and submit it again and see what happens. You could probably add some to it; trimming it down would be more difficult.

As to placing the story in an earlier time period, I think that would be easy for you to do, and wouldn't make any significant difference to the story; nothing in it is solidly tied to any precise time period other than about post WWII (cars, phones, and electricity are widespread).

[Lester Curtis]

I'd say the word count thing is partly publishing-house trend, and partly guideline (as opposed to strict rule). I read the blog Nate linked to, though, and now I'm worried. My project is only (I'm guessing) about half done, and the word count is about 125,000. And, for the life of me, I can't think of a neat way to break it into two separate books. I could break it into THREE separate books, but then I'd definitely need to bulk up the first one by quite a bit.

Lucky me, I can forget about all this for a while; at the rate it's going, it'll be maybe another two years before I finish it.

Nate -- again, I'll say 'guideline.' It seems pretty nearly unanimous that your story should be aimed at the juvenile and/or YA market, and the Harry Potters were pretty hefty. Do the revisions you want and submit it again and see what happens. You could probably add some to it; trimming it down would be more difficult.

As to placing the story in an earlier time period, I think that would be easy for you to do, and wouldn't make any significant difference to the story; nothing in it is solidly tied to any precise time period other than about post WWII (cars, phones, and electricity are widespread).

If my (statistically biased?) mini-sample is correct, don't split it at all. 125,000 words is right in the mark of my shelf-tomes. Without doing the math, something like 475 pages gross and 450 pages net after chapter breaks. Right on target. And all of those were *thrillers*, not even Genre titles. MAYBE the Genre titles dropped in Page Count over the last year, but that would require an extensive survey of size vs copyright date.

Re-read my post, Tao -- at 125K, it's HALF done.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe I could split it after all . . . and I've got some very vague notions for a sequel, using this story as the first of a multi-generational epic.

If I live long enough.

[Lester Curtis]

Sure! I read somewhere else (that I can't put a finger on) that Publishers like it when Authors have Multi-Volume plan going. So sure, put a bowtie around the first half and call it Part 1 / Volume 1.

We must have both read the same article.

The thing that bothers me is how the Business affects the Art. I didn't want to write a series; I wanted to write one complete, self-contained story. If it turns out the way I like it at 200K+ words, then I might as well forget the commercial print publishing route, which does have significant benefits (along with its limitations and hassles). Especially since I have no print history. "Wow, it's really great, but you're an unknown, and . . . "

Oh well. I keel sending in the PCH sweepstakes entries, and they keep assuring me I could win the Superprize. When that happens, I can have my OWN publishing company. And a custom-built Harley.

[kailhofer]

Well, going by the reviews of the people who actually finished reading it (which were very, very few), the summation pretty much came out as, "Meh. If you change a lot you might have something."

I can take a lot of the suggestions with a grain of salt, but the most telling thing to me was if my writer friends won't even finish reading it, I don't think I'm making it past the slush pile.

That, and I spend most of my time working very long hours just to pay the bills, which really doesn't leave you much time or inclination to write.

So it's just sitting where it was. Mission failed again, I guess.

[kailhofer]

Well, going by the reviews of the people who actually finished reading it (which were very, very few), the summation pretty much came out as, "Meh. If you change a lot you might have something."

I can take a lot of the suggestions with a grain of salt, but the most telling thing to me was if my writer friends won't even finish reading it, I don't think I'm making it past the slush pile.

That, and I spend most of my time working very long hours just to pay the bills, which really doesn't leave you much time or inclination to write.

So it's just sitting where it was. Mission failed again, I guess.

Nate, you are the last word whether or not you like it and would read it if the book was given to you let's say for Christmas. If you like it, then there is guaranteed an audience for it. You trust your judgement in editing or reviewing stories for the challenges and if your judgement says it's good, it's good!

I liked it and was only hindered finishing it by those long days that I have too. It was like a literary movie script. Lot's of subplots and nuances to keep the storyline flowing.

Send it in as is. What's to lose!

Mark, I'm not singling you out there. There were others who didn't finish either.

I'm probably just feeling down, but you really have no idea how many houses and agents rejected that story already. I spent years sending it around until I couldn't find or think of anybody else to send it to that would do a proper job of it. I've tried moving the first chapter as a story by itself, and all I got from that was a personal response from the editor at Baen when they were doing shorts online saying there's too much other stuff to make it a good story--like it was the opening of a book. Which I then tried as a book again, and didn't make past the slush pile.

When you're sure you've got something you think is good, but then don't get anywhere for a decade... You tweak and tweak over again. Repeated 'Almosts,' and 'Not quites' are far more painful than 'noes' for me at this point. So much you just feel beaten up. Each time I get another one of them, it takes longer to get that courage back up again.

Stop making a bunch of writers who still haven't found their own voices try to help you find yours. Your literary judgement is better than the writers who read and commented on it.

I think you're wrong there. We're really all each other has to discover that voice. That's one of the greatest strengths of Aphelion. Write, get feedback from writer friends, and improve. I may have skills, but that doesn't mean I don't still learn from people--including you. On the contrary, many of the questions you ask really put me to the test.

Will I send it again? I'm sure. If I hadn't been feeling encouraged again, I wouldn't have asked for beta readers 3/4 of a year ago. That response then sucked the wind from my sails, but I have had trouble thinking of anything else since Tao posted his follow-up message. (And in a way that's bad, since I really need to get tonight's flash contest written down.)

I dunno... I think I might just be rambling here...

[kailhofer]

I'm not sure. Are you saying you want to write what we would call "fanfic" versions of the stories using the characters I invented? If so, would that make those characters not something I would be clear to sell rights to if I got the oppportunity? Following that line, you would have crossed into something I don't know the answer to.

Or were you thinking of something else?

[Lester Curtis]

Just to start a discussion, I'll post a controversial idea: Let us play with your universe. It's a long-brewing peeve of mine that except Tom Clancy and Heroes in Hell, or even the Mare series here, etc, aka specially crafted deals, writers have somehow subliminally tricked themselves that they can't play in each other's worlds, so they have to start all over, EVERY ... SINGLE ... TIME. Even the Flash challenges - in the name of the other goal of not (easily) guessing who wrote what, no "universe" can ever be used again. In X challenges, that's how many abandoned setups?

Oh! It's like Rick's poem: only one civilization per universe!

So can we play in your universe, if only to just get any kind of momentum going?

I'm not sure that would be helpful to Nate. I'm thinking of how I react when someone tells me, "Oh, you should have this character do this . . . " and I have to try and figure out a polite way to explain to them why that wouldn't work.

Besides, I'm not sure he'd get any more response than he's already had.