Aphelion story linked to at Lit Haven

[kailhofer]

"Quiet Please" by Aimee Bender was about a librarian who laid half the guys in the library because she got the good news that her father had died. Aside from a few naughty words and a sex scene or two, nothing much happened. That was the story. IMO, typical boring literary fiction.

"The Orange" (I think that was the title) by Benjamin Rosenbaum was simply nonsense. If there was a deeper meaning to this story, I sure didn't catch it.

Some, maybe most, APHELION readers find literary fiction to their liking. But me, I ain't got no culture.

<br>Stick to your guns, Donald.<br><br>Harpers may have paid money for "The Orange", but that doesn't mean that it worth it. I agree "Quiet Please" had the shock value of a librarian sex kitten, but not much else was noteworthy. <br><br>As for "Killer's Choice", apart from the question of whether the killer killed the boss or the mark, this story leaves me greatly nonplussed.<br><br>If this is the kind of stuff you have to write to make the big bucks, I'd rather be dirt poor. (Not that I'm far from that, mind you.)<br>(See my earlier rant on the first page of the "Icezoid" thread.)<br><br>Nate

[kailhofer]

What about the other Aimee Bender story, about the boy who is born with keys for fingers? Let me know what you guys think of that one.

<br>What do I think?<br><br>I think I have a headache.<br><br>Do I like it better than the others? Yes. <br>It is a much more complete plot in that it follows the guy while he finds where his keys work, until he no longer needs to search.<br><br>Did I get the underlying meaning here? Did I figure out the symbolism? No. <br>I don't know what all the keys meant. I don't know why there are all those broken glass metaphors. I don't know what was supposed to be accomplished with the declining father figure.<br><br>I have a degree in English with a minor in Anthropology from a good school, so it really bothers me that I can't figure out the symbols and clues of these people. I finally made my wife read it, too. She also has a degree in English, and she didn't understand it, either, but now she's mad at me for bugging her until she read it.<br><br>So if you want to clue me in on what was so deep it was worth annoying my beloved over it, feel free.<br><br>Nate

[kailhofer]

Please, don't take this as an insult, but I was kind of surprised when you said you were an English major, because it seems that as an English major, you would have been forced to read this kind of stuff for four years straight.

<br>Not all English majors wander around like modern Beatniks, in berets, debating which post-war communist poet is best read with deconstructionsim. (I have, in fact, heard discussions of that. I left the room because I had more practical things to do.)<br><br>I managed to steer most of my studies toward book editing and publishing, linguistic structure and forms, history of the language, and literature pre-1865... Creative writing, critical approaches to literature, Shakespeare, Chaucer, and yes, some of this. Thankfully, not much.<br><br>

I guess I'm just not getting what point you're trying to find in a story.

<br><br>I've posted this before, but I look for a good use of what Robert Silverberg called The Generic Plot of all Stories: <br>A sympathetic and engaging character (or an unsympathetic one who is engaging nevertheless), faced with some immensely difficult problem that it is necessary for him to solve, makes a series of attempts to overcome that problem, frequently encountering challenging sub-problems and undergoing considerable hardship and anguish, and eventually, at the darkest moment of all, calls on some insight that was not accessible to him at the beginning of the story and either succeeds in his efforts or fails in a dramatically interesting and revelatory way, thereby arriving at new knowledge of some significant kind.<br>--Asimov’s SF Magazine, 2004.<br><br>Maybe all that was in there, but you'll have to help me see it.<br><br>Nate

[kailhofer]

Simon,<br><br>There are a lot of factors in any story. Characterization, setting, dialog, plot developments and conflict, etc. I think a good story has all of those things.<br><br>--You didn't help me out on this one. What is the deal with the keyfingers and the breaking glass??<br><br>Nate

[crb2099]

<br>I dunno about Aimee either. I get it, but her style isn't for everyone. Certainly not for me. <br><br>On the flip, I thought "The Orange" was absolutely brilliant! This almost read like good poetry (and I hate most poetry). Better yet, it read like a Zen narrative. If you've ever read a handful of Zen narrative, then you recognize those suckers a mile away. <br><br>And when I think about it, an orange would do a better job at running things than G. W. Bush (so would most inanimate objects, though). <br><br>-Chris

[pnew8]

--You didn't help me out on this one. What is the deal with the keyfingers and the breaking glass?? <br> <br><br>Sometimes, in literature, an object is used emphasis the author's focus upon a particular ideal they are relating to the reader. A candle in the window represents the desire of a homebody for a loved wayfarer to return home, represents hope and longing. Sometimes those objects mean more to some readers than others, sometimes those objects' meaning aren't obvious. And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not seeing or understanding particular objects within fiction. That is one of the reasons that some stories work for some readers and not for others. How a story relates to a reader gives it its worth.<br><br>In Aimee Bender's "The Leading Man" she uses several objects in such a manner. The protagonist in this story, a child in the beginning, a grown son at the end is born with keys instead of fingers. For me, those keys are a physical object representing possibility and perhaps even fate. A child is born with unlimited potential. All sorts of doors of possibility are available for him to open, unlock. And there is choice and potential with each door he opens. He didn't steal the neighbor's car. He didn't steal the artwork. He rescued the child. <br><br>Those choices led him forward and led him to the story's resolution or character's resolution, which was the conflict he held inside about his father's absence during to an unrecognized war. And, his father's disability from that war. In my humble opinion.<br><br>The broken glass. And I'm not as sure about this one as I am about the keys, but I think it represents the fragility of life. You work to get something perfect and then it is shattered. Maybe it was meant to be shattered. Maybe a part of life is shattering the lives of others. (Isn't there career positions that strongly affect the lives of strangers?) <br><br>The child with the can opener elbow brought a smile to my face because I was going along and thinking this child with the keys was unusual and special. And, he is in his way, but he's not alone. Other children with other special traits exist. What does the can opener represent? What can a child with the ability to open pork 'n beans, fruit cocktail and creamed corn represent? A contributing member of society. Maybe not a hero, but someone important to family members and others. <br><br>So, that's my thoughts upon the items. I'm not saying that my interpretation is the right one. It's just a possible one. Maybe you can arrive at others. <br><br>Pam McNew<br>who grew up reading Heinlein and Asimov and some guy named Bradbury<br>

[AshlieSalawage]

"Keeping in with this debate,"<br><br>Please don't take offense to this, Shado, but I really don't think this is keeping in with this debate. As someone who visits multiple forums across the internet, I think it's very important to keep things on topic, because all it takes is the slightest of wayward posts and then the original topic will be lost forever. I didn't really get a chance to look at your stories, but Bloodletters, by its name, is a horror market. By comparing selected stories from there to ones here, you're basically just basing a discussion over the whims of different genre editors. If we let this thread continue as it goes, potentially we could have a bunch of writers coming on here and saying, "Hey, what did you guys think of my story in *this* webzine?" If you would like criticism of your work, there are multiple forums from which to do this, including OWW and Critters, but I think it important that we stay with the matter at hand; the merit of lit fiction, or more specifically, the merit of surrealist lit fiction, especially the fiction linked to in Lit Haven.<br><br>Pam made some extremely wonderful comments on the debate concerning Aimee Bender's fiction, but I'd like to add to the discussion concerning surrealist lit.<br><br>Surrealism, by definition, is "a 20th-century literary and artistic movement that attempts to express the workings of the subconscious and is characterized by fantastic imagery and incongruous juxtaposition of subject matter." The key word here is "subconscious," as you'll see with "Quiet Please," the story seems to take on a Freudian psychoanalytical approach, delving into the sexual urges with no sense of boundaries holding the Librarian back. The prose itself is psychoanalytic as well, you'll see this with the fact that it seems to just flow, commas thrown in at will, long run-on sentences, just this continuing narrative that makes one think the writer started typing a story, throwing caution to the wind and proceeding on through all barriers. I consider this to be the heart of surrealist literature, a disregarding factor for realism, breaking apart from the aspects of normal lit.<br><br>This is precisely why I don't think it completely necessary to explain all the metaphors and motivations in stories like these, because in some essence, they are merely streams of consciousness, thrown in between one sentence and the next.<br><br>But then again, I happen to know Simon personally, so perhaps my judgment is just biased :-)<br><br>I'm looking forward to hearing others' thoughts.<br><br>--Ashlie S.

[kailhofer]

The broken glass. And I'm not as sure about this one as I am about the keys, but I think it represents the fragility of life. You work to get something perfect and then it is shattered. Maybe it was meant to be shattered. Maybe a part of life is shattering the lives of others. (Isn't there career positions that strongly affect the lives of strangers?)

<br>Interesting. If this is the case, the mother creates life, and then wishes it broken? Since the breaking also makes her sad, why then would the main character get a job at a factory where he breaks glass? (He's on his way home from the factory when he finds out about the boy in the box.) His job is one where he destroys life? That doesn't seem to fit a character searching for his possibilities.<br><br>As for your other judgments, ok. Maybe.<br><br>Nate

[kailhofer]

Simon,<br>It seems that you're seeking approval, and having just started a zine, I guess I don't blame you. If Donald and I are a representative sample of the writers of Aphelion's and their feelings, perhaps we're just not your market. It's not personal. <br><br>"Howdy" to your friends that have put in appearances here in defense of Lit Haven's stories. It's always nice to "read" a new face.<br><br>Since you and your friends seem to have a different perspective than "The Usual Suspects", what did you, or they, think of the stories that are here in August or September (if Dan floats back to the surface in time to upload them)?<br><br>We've given opinions on Lit. Haven's stories. Turnabout should be fair play.<br><br>Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

Are you kidding? Dubya is doing the work of three men: Larry, Curly, and Moe!

Donald

<br><br>No, silly. Dick Cheney is doing that. Dubya is more like ... Zeppo Marx, with a better public relations guy working for him.<br><br>Robert M.

[Robert_Moriyama]

...or maybe Harpo??

Donald

<br><br>Nah. Harpo kept his mouth shut and was entertaining without hurting anybody. He would never invite someone to beat up Chico or Groucho while he hid out somewhere safe. Zeppo, on the other hand, was a non-entity along for the ride, the pretty boy (relatively speaking) of the group with no talent of his own.<br><br>Robert M.

[pnew8]

<br>---Interesting. If this is the case, the mother creates life, and then wishes it broken? Since the breaking also makes her sad, why then would the main character get a job at a factory where he breaks glass? (He's on his way home from the factory when he finds out about the boy in the box.) His job is one where he destroys life? That doesn't seem to fit a character searching for his possibilities.<br><br>Nate<br><br>Nate,<br><br><br>The main character might get a job in which he breaks glass, because he is good at it? Or it refers to his past and his childhood? And his childhood is a thing that makes him feel uncertain/uneasy. I don't believe the mother intentionally wants to break the child she has created, and to tell the truth, I hadn't considered that option. I could say that as a working mother taking even more time away from her son by taking craft classes may have increased his feeling of isolation. Maybe the glass is a metaphor for the child and by breaking it, he is self destructive or it expresses his desire to be something different, or his frustration with his life/himself. Of course, maybe, this is reading something into the fiction that the writer didn't intentionally put there and is being just silly. Maybe the broken glass is just representative of a fictional world where life elements is both fantastic and realistic.<br><br>PamM<br>

[Robert_Moriyama]

A job breaking glass.  Eight hours a day, five days a week would produce an awful lot of broken glass.  Wonder what the company does with all this glass.
Donald

<br>I would guess that it's shipped to a factory where it is packaged with barrels of iodine for sale to masochists as bedding. No, sorry, that would make some kind of (twisted) sense, and wouldn't fit the requirements of the literary / surreal genre. Never mind.<br><br>Robert M.

[Robert_Moriyama]

LMAO!!

Donald

<br>LMAO = Left-wing Mao? I think the 'L' is redundant in that case. A Right-wing or even centrist Mao would be unlikely.<br><br>(It's posts like these that earn Stars quickly. A lack of self-restraint and any capacity for shame helps.)<br><br>Robert M.<br><br>

[Robert_Moriyama]

LMAO= Laughed my a** off.    

( And lo, another star already!  No self-restraint; no shame.)

Donald

<br>Well, it's your asterisk, as opposed to Dubya, who likes to risk other peoples' a**es.<br><br>Robert M.<br><br>(Hmm. You know, I have the feeling we're drifting a little off-topic...)

[kailhofer]

(Hmm. You know, I have the feeling we're drifting a little off-topic...)

<br>If any reader hasn't noticed, "the usual suspects" like to talk. Especially that Robert fella. ;)<br><br>If the next issue isn't ready, we'll argue about other zines, or the Marx brothers, or political issues. Set something in front of us, and we'll poke at it with verbal sticks until it's dead or a new topic distracts us.<br><br>Hurry, Dan, or soon we'll be debating pop music, the most choice cheese, or the best children's literature!<br><br>Nate

[kailhofer]

Artemis Fowl by Eoin Colfer.

Uh oh, now you've started it

<br>No, clearly it was The House With a Clock in its Walls by John Bellairs (with art by Edward Gorey, not those crappy reprints with Mercer Mayer's drawings). I loved it enough that I bought 11 of his books from the Lewis Barnevelt, Johnny Dixon, and the Anthony Monday lines, even though I didn't know there was more than the first one until I was in my twenties. <br><br>Gothic horror before Gothic was cool.<br><br>My other favorites were the Great Brain books by John D. Fitzgerald (where, coincidentally, Mercer Mayer's drawings work ok).<br><br><br>I've never heard of Artemis Fowl. What's that one about?<br>Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

I see that this topic has reached five pages. I don't remember ever seeing that many before. Is it a new record?

Donald

<br>... I'm pretty sure it is. And most of the posts are at least somewhat 'on topic', too (mainly about the nature and relative merit of 'literary' fiction).<br><br>Re: the copyright issue, I seem to recall at least a few instances where publications have taken action to prohibit other sites from linking directly to specific articles within their sites (as opposed to linking to their home pages, presumably so they can guarantee to advertisers that home-page ads aren't being skipped. This isn't an issue at an ad-free, 'for the luv' site like Aphelion, of course.<br><br>(I'm not sure if there have been legal decisions since that would definitely allow LitHaven's 'portal'-type usage. In any case, since LitHaven is (a) non-profit, and (b) essentially a 'recommendations' portal (links to the staff's current crop of favorite stories and non-fiction), and (c) willing to comply with any cease-and-desist notice, I think Simon and company should be okay.)<br><br>Robert M.<br>(On topic, and no plugs for my stories. I'm definitely slipping. It does, however, put me one post closer to that FIFTH star...)

[Robert_Moriyama]

There are ways to restrict outside linking to one's site. My take is if you put it on the web, it defaults to general access. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

<br>That only counts if it WASN'T because you couldn't remember where you live ... ;)<br><br>Robert M.<br><br>

[Robert_Moriyama]

Even though they (Artemis Fowl books) are aimed at young teens, I still find them quite enjoyable.

Kevin

<br>I find that I like quite a few of the 'young readers' books, although I'm about 3 or 4 times the age of the target audience. (There's a lot of crap in the tweens and teens market, but there's a lot of crap in the material in every genre and market age bracket. Sturgeon's Law rules!)<br><br>Part of the appeal may be the clearly-defined roles -- the good guys are usually pretty easy to distinguish from the bad guys, even if (as in the later Harry Potter books) the heroes are themselves all too human. But I suspect that it is the straightforward storytelling that I really like. The writing in 'juvenile' fiction is rarely (Simon Owens will now dig himself a grave so he can spin in it) as convoluted and, well, pretentiously arty as some 'literary' fiction. I read fiction to be entertained (and sometimes learn things along the way -- I read non-fiction specifically to learn things), and I write fiction to (I hope) entertain.<br><br>Lettercol posts, on the other hand, I write to work my way closer to (cue The Impossible Dream) reach -- the unreachable star.<br><br>Robert M.