Blind Collaboration

[kailhofer]

Oh, why not. Sure, count me in.

I can swing 2,000 words or less, as long as you don't need it in 2 days or anything.

Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

/me reaches for the wet trout

Right, we need to stamp this out right now. Comments like that deserve punishment. :P

It wasn't a Kilgore Trout, was it? 'Cause those are endangered. (Less so then if they were DRY, but endangered nonetheless.)

::)

Anyway, Nightwatch is already a blind collaboration, because only Jeff knows its ultimate 'destination'. Even if participants get to see works-in-progress, those only represent particular PARTS of the elephant -- and there is already some disagreement about how those parts may (or may not) fit into the whole. And what if, in the end, it's an elephant-designed-by-committee? Or a really large, wrinkly platypus?)

RM

[kailhofer]

I thought I might get a double 'O' number... but instead got a letter designation. :'(

007 always had a lot more fun than Q. (No, I didn't get "Q," either.)

How about secret decoder rings? Can we get those? ;)


Tao, I believe it's just the one installment.


Nate

[kailhofer]

Dude!

S E C R E T means you don't tell anybody about your story, especially any of the rest of us involved.

All I was referring to was that my instructions were for "Collaborator_#" (For# substitute a random letter of an alphabet).


Nate

[kailhofer]

A Flash piece of 1000 words has to *finish* its emotional delivery in the 1000 words. However, I am definitely setting *someone* up. Therefore my item has been written as a fragment of a larger whole.

I've assumed that we're all supposed to *finish* at 1000 words, telling a whole story, but that we have to end with specific results. Those results would then mean something to someone who uses them to forge a conclusion.

Of course, I've got a few theories as to where we're really going with this, but I'll wait to see the final version...


Nate

[kailhofer]

Mine's done.

How many parts total are in this thing, anyway?

Nate

[kailhofer]

Nate, that's one scary pumpkinhead over there.

Lee

You think?

That's Jack. He sits in front of my house every Halloween with floodlights to cast his shadow up on the side of my house. Not bad for some corkscrew and weeping willow, a mask, and some old clothes from when the kids were little.

Someday when I need a change, I've got a ghost picture from a friend of mine...

Anyhow, Jack has got to be better than an actual picture of me... now that would be spooky.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Yes, got Lee's, among others. My intro is done. It's all shaping up nicely. Once everyone's sections are in and integrated I can draft the conclusion, which is currently floating around my head awaiting further details.

Gareth

Well, if you're doing a wake from dream sequence ending, Newhart already did a pretty good one, and I doubt any of us look like Patrick Duffy from Dallas...

Personally, I'd say the odds were good that the ending is just a punchline for an extended joke... ;)

Nate

[kailhofer]

and i'm also eager to see where this project is going: we should have more of these.

Lee

Depending on what Gareth does with these, of course, I heartily agree. This was fun, and at a thousand words, sure wasn't hard.

It's been a really long time since I skimmed through old issues, but maybe Dan could say (or Tao, for that matter since he reads old stories)... Didn't there used to be writing challenges or contests of some kind?

Considering the decline in posts, maybe something like that could increase community involvement and discussion. At least, this project got a lot of Suspects talking.

Nate

[kailhofer]

"Suspects", huh? Please don't tell me we're all getting dragged into a Court TV show. No one has to suspect anything - I know I'm involved in mischief.

So now the deed is done: I have submitted my first Fraction Of A Story. ( ! ) One of these months I'll actually submit a whole one!

Don' worry about it... Now that youse ha' done a soivice for the Fam'ly (that is, now that you've written part of story that one of the Editorial Mafia here will see), da whole woild is open to ya. Keep dis up, youse could get made one day.


You may not be very 'usual', but even if you weren't one before, you're one of the "Usual Suspects" now. ;)

Nate

[kailhofer]

at any rate, i love this concept and would like to see more of these assignments in the future.

Lee

As I said, I agree heartily. In fact, I'd like to see to more flash pieces like the ones we wrote, perhaps even their own part of the zine. These days, a bit of Fast Fiction is all I have time for.

Nate

[kailhofer]

another aspect of it i loved were the constraints...word count, situation. hey we could even make it a writer's pressure hour. you know, one hour, thousand words, guy and his off-world wife sitting at a bar in 2019 LA when a replicant walks in. take it from there. go!

i like that sort of challenge.

Lee

Well, couldn't we do some kind of challenge or contest like that just using the Lettercol?


I mean, if we had a folder set aside like the issues get or the Administrivia has (but with a 'some items may not be appropriate for all ages' warning), why couldn't any of us start a new folder new challenges?

Personally, I think flash pieces of 1000 words or less are best for challenges, but we have a 25000 character limit per message, so you could post a pretty big story in one message (or split the story into multiple posts). I know from previous posts that Robert has stated that he's not overly keen on flash pieces for the magazine, so why not split them off into their own portion?

Let's say we used Lee's example above. Lee starts a new folder with the challenge name & an expiration date. If he feels like it, he posts a sample story (which shouldn't be eligible to win the challenge, I think). People post their entries in their replies to the original post message. After the time limit (say, a month) Lee (or whomever started the challenge) takes the names of the stories down and puts them into a poll message (which is a neat feature of this version of YABB), where we can vote on which we liked best. Plus after the poll, people could post any comments they wanted on stories (although I suppose there's nothing besides decorum that stops them from doing it before).

Or... If the editors wanted it to be something that pertained to the month's issue or more under their control, post a monthly challenge in the issue. Then, when the folder is made for the month, just post the challenge folder at the same time. Some editor (or new volunteer) can post this contest's details (story parameters, word limit, rated 'G' or 'R', contest end date, etc.). and make the poll message later. We vote, then announce the winner in the next month's issue. If they really want to make it special, they could publish the winner's stories as part of the Dec-Jan issue.

I something like think this could help draw a lot of people to the Lettercol, create more enthusiasm in posting, as well as attract more people to the zine. Plus, it shouldn't really take much work, since the lettercol framework is already set up. If it needs a volunteer, well, it was my idea.

Some sample ideas of challenges could be:
Zombies in a Bar
Fables with Fairies
Artificial Intelligence in Your Kitchen (or, 'My Toaster is Smarter than Me!')
From the Mind of a Serial Killer
We've done a 'Blind' collaboration, so how about 'Heroes who can't Hear'
Create a story version of a well-known folk song, like 'Big Rock Candy Mountain'
Bug-Eyed Monsters Moved in Next Door
Lee's One-Hour Replicants

Things like these. So, what do you think? Good idea or bad idea?

Nate

[kailhofer]

Ooo.

Apart from Gareth, this is a rather quiet topic. I hoped for more by this point.

Let me just say this was just an idea, and was in no way meant to step on Robert's toes. Obviously, he's the Short Story editor, and anything under 7500 words is his domain.

While, technically, we could post writing challenges ourselves, I would never do so without the blessings of the Editors.

Nate

[kailhofer]

It's the kind of idea that we all like the sound of, but when it comes to it people are already busy with their own projects. I was pleasantly surprised that so many wanted to join in this collaboration, but even so one person has dropped out due to other commitments and my tentative deadline is gradually receding into the mists of time. One just has to be patient.

I think we'll all enjoy the results, but whether we'd get a good response if this was a regular thing, I don't know.

Gareth

Well, that was one of the thing I liked about the idea. There wouldn't be any signing up, so it wasn't dependent on anyone except whomever started it. If someone wants to do it, then they post a story. If not, that's fine, too.

Obviously, different story topics would speak to different people.


Are you filling the void with another story bit, or are you just going with one short?

Nate

[kailhofer]

i nomiNATE kailhofer as the inaugural challenger!

but hey, why all this business about winning? it doesn't have to be that kind of challenge, simply a task to test our writing mettle.

as for bug eyed monsters moving next door, that's the story of my life with neighbors so i kindly request we steer clear of that one.

Lee

I was hoping for some kind of possible reward as a way of drawing more and new writers in. Aphelion doesn't pay, so all that's left are possible bragging rights for a month and maybe publication at the end of the year.

If nothing else, it could be a way for newbies to test the water or maybe improve their skill set before submitting a story for real, or a way for the rest of us to keep those creative juices flowing.

And, like I said, I'm not starting a challenge without an editor's approval of the concept. Dan or Robert, are you out there?

Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

i nomiNATE kailhofer as the inaugural challenger!

but hey, why all this business about winning? it doesn't have to be that kind of challenge, simply a task to test our writing mettle.

as for bug eyed monsters moving next door, that's the story of my life with neighbors so i kindly request we steer clear of that one.

Lee

I was hoping for some kind of possible reward as a way of drawing more and new writers in. Aphelion doesn't pay, so all that's left are possible bragging rights for a month and maybe publication at the end of the year.

If nothing else, it could be a way for newbies to test the water or maybe improve their skill set before submitting a story for real, or a way for the rest of us to keep those creative juices flowing.

And, like I said, I'm not starting a challenge without an editor's approval of the concept. Dan or Robert, are you out there?

Nate

We seem to be getting enough submissions to keep ME busy -- I've now run through submissions up to the first week of July to fill the November issue, and will probably use July and maybe part of all of August submissions for December / January. In spite of the horrible response times this year, new authors as well as Aphelion veterans are still sending stuff in. Whether this is because of or in spite of my editorial methods remains to be seen ...

Mind you, if we manage to stay on schedule and only skip ONE issue a year (the traditional January month off), we could end up burning through our inventory. Then I would be forced, FORCED, I say, to use the Stories I Wish I Had Written Better Or Not At All from the electronic steamer trunk at the back of my metaphorical closet, under suitable pseudonyms (say, Kale Natehoffer, or Joan D. Gareth, or Pauline Gareth, etc.). (This is a warning to all readers, authors, and would-be authors. Keep submitting, OR ELSE.)

Robert 'Be afraid. Be very afraid.' M.

[kailhofer]

We seem to be getting enough submissions to keep ME busy -- I've now run through submissions up to the first week of July to fill the November issue, and will probably use July and maybe part of all of August submissions for December / January. In spite of the horrible response times this year, new authors as well as Aphelion veterans are still sending stuff in. Whether this is because of or in spite of my editorial methods remains to be seen ...

Mind you, if we manage to stay on schedule and only skip ONE issue a year (the traditional January month off), we could end up burning through our inventory. Then I would be forced, FORCED, I say, to use the Stories I Wish I Had Written Better Or Not At All from the electronic steamer trunk at the back of my metaphorical closet, under suitable pseudonyms (say, Kale Natehoffer, or Joan D. Gareth, or Pauline Gareth, etc.). (This is a warning to all readers, authors, and would-be authors. Keep submitting, OR ELSE.)

Robert 'Be afraid. Be very afraid.' M.

Err... I seem to have misplaced my secret decoder ring.

Is that a tacit approval of the concept, or was it just soliciting more submissions from the likes of Lee, the Gareths, me, etc.?

Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

We seem to be getting enough submissions to keep ME busy -- I've now run through submissions up to the first week of July to fill the November issue, and will probably use July and maybe part of all of August submissions for December / January. In spite of the horrible response times this year, new authors as well as Aphelion veterans are still sending stuff in. Whether this is because of or in spite of my editorial methods remains to be seen ...

Mind you, if we manage to stay on schedule and only skip ONE issue a year (the traditional January month off), we could end up burning through our inventory. Then I would be forced, FORCED, I say, to use the Stories I Wish I Had Written Better Or Not At All from the electronic steamer trunk at the back of my metaphorical closet, under suitable pseudonyms (say, Kale Natehoffer, or Joan D. Gareth, or Pauline Gareth, etc.). (This is a warning to all readers, authors, and would-be authors. Keep submitting, OR ELSE.)

Robert 'Be afraid. Be very afraid.' M.

Err... I seem to have misplaced my secret decoder ring.

Is that a tacit approval of the concept, or was it just soliciting more submissions from the likes of Lee, the Gareths, me, etc.?

Nate

Neither (although I would welcome submissions from any of our battle-scarred veterans). I was just saying that we don't seem to need to offer 'winning' (were you offering to set up a prize money pool, or was this a symbolic prize?) something as an incentive for people to submit their work. Now some of the submissions are pretty bad ... but some of them (including those from writers who say they've never submitted anything anywhere before) are pretty good. The 'pretty good' submissions from a given calendar month generally provide enough material to fill an issue ... so long as we don't hit a few 'dry' months in a row.

Robert 'Tacit? I try not to tac anything unless I know where it's been. And that soliciting charge was dropped.' M.

[kailhofer]

Neither (although I would welcome submissions from any of our battle-scarred veterans). I was just saying that we don't seem to need to offer 'winning' (were you offering to set up a prize money pool, or was this a symbolic prize?) something as an incentive for people to submit their work. Now some of the submissions are pretty bad ... but some of them (including those from writers who say they've never submitted anything anywhere before) are pretty good. The 'pretty good' submissions from a given calendar month generally provide enough material to fill an issue ... so long as we don't hit a few 'dry' months in a row.

Well, as for my thought on 'winning', it was a symbolic prize. That is, some writer would be able to say something like, "I won the Reader's Choice for the Aphelion 'Alien with a Stopwatch and Red Socks' Flash Challenge." (or whatever it would be) Not cool enough to impress paying editors, but neat enough to brag about to friends and family.

I thought if there wasn't a 'winner', per se, it wouldn't draw new people to the zine & lettercol, and it may not be enough challenge to keep regulars submitting. Eventually, everybody says to themselves "what's in this for me", and it would be good to have something to be there to answer that. I'm sure a change to Aphelion's entry at Ralan would draw new writers to try it out.

As I understand it, in a poll you get one vote per IP address, so it would be difficult (although not impossible) to stuff the ballot box. Hopefully, the idea would catch on and bring enough new people to the lettercol that any intended tampering is suppressed by numbers. Plus, once all these new people are in the lettercol, there are these stories from that month's issue that could be easily commented on...

Sure, there are people who just love writing, and that would be enough for them. But for those people who need a carrot, I think it would be nice to have that carrot to give.

My two cents. If everybody says there doesn't need to be any reader's choice/winner, fine. I'll go along with that.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Secondly, challenge away, people. Feel free to come up with a topic, but also remember to give people about three months to work on their tales and submit them to Rob M. Then six months for them to work their way through the slush pile ;).

We've had challenges before (says the runner up in the "Return of the King" competition :)), but they are a bit of a logistical challenge, so plenty of warning would be good.

Um... that's the way it may have run in the past, but that's not really what I was proposing now. I suggested using the lettercol to post stories for the challenge (each story pasted into the reply to the challenge message), and thus not go through the slush pile and not add to an editor's workload. Plus then it wouldn't take forever. Winners would be chosen by poll vote (using the new poll feature) in the lettercol topic for that challenge.

The challenge could be posted in the issue (if you editors want it that way), but the stories would reside in the lettercol (if that's the way it winds up).

I suggested publication only for the winners, and then only at the end of the year. This is, should this concept be ratified by those in power, like yourself.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Aha. Always nice to know I've missed the plot :D. You'd probably have to take this up with Our Beloved Leader. For myself, I would rather we didn't use the lettercol as a means of bypassing the editorial process. I have read some of the stuff that didn't make it... *shudder*

Well, Dan is rather MIA lately, presumably due to pesky marital bliss and that darned happiness situation.

Splitting hairs, Robert has never been all that keen to receive flash pieces, which is what was proposed as challenge entries. As such, it wouldn't be a regular part of his editorial process... (much ::)).

Ever been to Baen's Bar? You have to sign in to read the posts, but it's otherwise free. Baen's Universe, the top paying magazine for SF, only accepts stories posted into its message board. (Ok, technically, they also commission pieces from big names. But as far as you or I go, we have to submit to their board if we want any chance at all.) Beauties and dreck, all posted for every member to see and comment on.

Sight of the "unclean" there is not driving readers away. Even if people have to post ten versions of their tale before anybody says anything nice about it, people keep posting and others keep reading.

Food for thought, anyway.

Nate

[kailhofer]

I see a few ways that this could wind up working out:

1) Spammer's Delight - Whatever Lettercol folder & sub-folders set up for the various challenges winds up driving Rob Wynne insane with the chore of reading each and every post, then deleting the ones made by spammers.

I'm going to show a lot of ignorance of how things really work.

Does Rob throw out much spam now?? If too much of his time is taken up, would it work to have someone else moderate that folder? Is that possible? I mean, is it something you have to be a serious computer jock to do?

2) Bring A Sandwich To A Feast - The Challenge folder(s) suddenly get larger than the webspace used by the Lettercol and Aphelion combined, and good stuff gets ignored because of the sheer overabundance of entries. (This version also makes Aphelion co$t me more ca$h per month in ISP charge$.)

As far as space goes, obviously no one wants to bite the hand that feeds. Anything that costs you more money is unacceptable. However, how much disk space does a text only message take up?

3) Editor's Nightmare - No one bothers to spellcheck, because "it's just for the Lettercol..." thus making it harder on Bob and Jeff to whip the winning entries into polished readability & HTML code for publication in the zine itself. (Plus, everyone will have already read the winner in it's Lettercol incarnation.)

Well, sure. I think it's possible that everyone will have read it the first time. Publication would be the carrot to keep people entering & to draw new people both to the zine and the lettercol. As for polishing, I don't have a good answer. If someone needs extra help I've made a few web pages but may not be all that much help compared to more experienced web creators. I do have Adobe GoLive for making web pages (if that's any good compared to others) and a degree in English. 10 or 11 stories formatted by the end of the year (assuming 1 contest posted per issue) may not be enough to kill a person.

4) Our Loss - Everyone will concentrate on the Challenges, and not submit stuff to Aphelion itself. "It takes too long to wade through the Slushpile, so I'll just post whatever I want in the Lettercol and everyone will read it anyway." We already have a couple of poseurs, er posters, like that now. IE. "I've never submitted anything to Aphelion and never will, but I'm going to advertise my latest e-book in the Lettercol anyway..."

I suggest only stories less than 1000 words, which Robert isn't usually keen on, and I fully support shutting it down if he doesn't get enough submissions. As for self-advertisements, I know Moderators on other boards delete them with zeal. Wouldn't that work? Again, I plead ignorance.

5) Nate's Dream Come True - Nothing ever goes wrong, people all behave themselves, increased traffic to the Lettercol induces increased readership for Aphelion and increased commentary on the monthly issue's stories.

And there are doubtlessly other possibilities that I can't think of at the moment. It could work, or it could blow up in your faces. I can see an equal chance of it going either way.

Ow. The sarcasm reads a little sharp there. I just thought it might be a fun way to build up the lettercol & the zine, and no offense was meant.

However, the Lettercol is totally controled by Rob Wynne. He's the one that you need to convince, not me.

Dan

Well, it doesn't hurt to ask.

Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

One problem with using a lettercol-based collaborative effort to build participation in the lettercol is that even if it works, most of the activity it generates will be IN the lettercol-based collaborative effort, not in comments on the stories. The Administrivia folders have been getting more traffic than the monthly-issue comments for quite some time (including, of course, my various 'useful reference' topics, political rants, etc.). Now, if somebody could figure out how to draw more comments on the stories, poems, and novellas / serials, we could stop whinging about it. (Damn -- this post sorta kinda belongs in the 'Diminishing number of posts' topic as much as it does in this one.)

Robert "Off topic? Um -- what WAS the topic of this thread, anyway?" M.

[Robert_Moriyama]

I have a bit of insight into this problem.

Reviewing stories fairly is hard work.  I'm up to my third parsing on some because I forgot the plot the first time, screwed up the review the second time... then 3 months went by and I forgot again. It's far easier to post quick comments to the LetterCol.

There's no easy way to heavily boost reviews of the stories. The defining concept of the information age is an explosion of events competing for contributor time. Fortunately, Aphelion isn't banking on hard profits. So while discouraging, we're not racing a rent clock.

--TaoPhoenix

But -- but -- we're not asking for a doctoral thesis.  Most authors would be happy to know that somebody READ their story*, and we don't have a good way of logging hits on individual links at the moment, so a lettercol comment is the only evidence that The Audience is Listening -- er, reading.  A simple "Good story.  The ending took me by surprise." or "The bad guy really creeped me out, but the hero was kind of a wimp." or even "Don't give up your day job..." would be enough.  I know, that seems to favor quantity over quality, but not every story needs a thousand (or two thousand) word point-by-point analysis.

(* Not that I, for one, wouldn't prefer POSITIVE comments ...  :'( (viz. comments on 'A Matter of Pride'))

Robert "Surely 1000 posts must get you SOMETHING special" M.

[kailhofer]

One problem with using a lettercol-based collaborative effort to build participation in the lettercol is that even if it works, most of the activity it generates will be IN the lettercol-based collaborative effort, not in comments on the stories.  The Administrivia folders have been getting more traffic than the monthly-issue comments for quite some time (including, of course, my various 'useful reference' topics, political rants, etc.). Now, if somebody could figure out how to draw more comments on the stories, poems, and novellas / serials, we could stop whinging about it.  (Damn -- this post sorta kinda belongs in the 'Diminishing number of posts' topic as much as it does in this one.)

Robert "Off topic? Um -- what WAS the topic of this thread, anyway?" M.

Well, one of the options thrown out there was to make the challenge folder inside the edition folder, so at the least people would have to see all the story folders before posting a challenge piece. I don't know if that's enough, but it's bound to make a few stories get more comments, and hopefully not at the expense of what stories would normally get.

Nate

[kailhofer]

why make this an open-ended affair like a folder? keep it restricted and limited. a challenge per month, everyone has three days to get it into the challenge folder. after that it locks up and no more deposits.

don't know if that entails too much hassle and any extra cost...either of these and i say hold off on any new plans/programs.

I'm not crazy about 3 days. I tried this myself this week to see just how difficult it was. Given the challenge: Write a PG13 expression of love between two SF characters in 1000 words or less. You must include a snowstorm, a golden Buddha doll, & a metronome--it took me 3 days, and it was my idea! (The wife is always on me to write something romantic... Damn! Romance is hard to write! Gimmie a starship battle, aliens trying to suck out your brains, time travelers trying to stop you from being born... anything else!)

I think I'd rather something like 3 weeks to get it in, one week to voteon them, and then lock the folder. According to the help file, that's a really easy thing for a Moderator to do. However, I am curious as to whether or not one could still vote on a poll if it was locked or not. That's not very clear.

Speaking of easy things from the help file, perhaps using the 'Split' function would be a good thing here to move all these challenge messages into another folder? Gareth still has messages about the collaboration going.

Nate, i like this new avatar better!

Thanks. It was pretty neat to go see in real life, especially since I knew someone who helped scare people there as part of the Halloween display in the guy's yard. An animatronic framework moved the ghost up and down while independently moving the arms. Underneath, a black light lit up the see-through cloth.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Oh dear.

So do I have permission to write a 10,000 word story including a snowstorm, a golden Buddha doll, & a metronome, a starship battle, aliens trying to suck out your brains, and time travelers trying to stop you from being born?

I think I was abducted over Memorial Day. I was never this creative before and now it won't quit.

TaoPhoenix

Sure. Go ahead. :D

I'm sure Jeff would love to see it as much as I.

Nate

[kailhofer]

that's a pretty neat ghost trick Nate, i thought it was a graphic!

And the challenges must be short-lived or they will transform into nightmares for everyone. Three days to a week. if someone can't get it done they can always join the next one.

i am aware of the fact that this sort of voluntary action requires a certain critical mass of people to pull off and that if we don't have enough, then it won't work.

Lee

Well, that's a good thought. If the challenge stopped at say, 2 weeks, then for sure it couldn't be blamed for stealing away all the posts & our time.

I just can't see only 1 week. There are so many procrastinators around here, and people like myself who just don't write fast. (Not that I'm not good at it, I'm just not fast.) Plus, then the challenges are all done and voted on well before the next issue, so it would be easy for Dan to mention who won in or after the editorial.

Of course, there's not a whole lot of enthusiastic support from anybody other than you and me... Especially fom above.

Nate

[kailhofer]

also, if we see there's a lack of interest in this initiative, maybe it isn't the time for it anyway.

Lee

I'm not sure it's a lack of writer interest, since we keep talking about it in Gareth's Blind Collaboration thread. I think most people who aren't in on the collaboration aren't reading the thread, so they don't know anything about it.

I think the lack of interest/approval is from the editors, which pretty much kills it, like a pocket veto.

Nate

[kailhofer]

With still 2 contributions to come we've passed the 7,500 word mark and entered the realms of the novelette. It's looking great, and I don't just mean my section. :)

Gareth

What?! Still 2 to come? I want to see this thing!

Tell us their names, so we can humble and belittle them until they submit. :)

Nate