DISCUSS: FLASH CHALLENGE RULES AND REGULATIONS

[Robert_Moriyama]

R the T

Nate establishes the guidelines. Contributors expresses their opinions and thoughts on them as with the stories.

What, no alias this time?

Mark

Mark, it seems unfair of YOU to imply that Richard or any other regular commentator and author has been hiding behind an alias...

Sling some unsupported innuendo and some people will believe it (if Mark said it, maybe there's some truth to it!). Repeat, loudly and often, and MORE people will believe it. (Viz. WMDs in Iraq, Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein as best buddies, etc.) Do NOT accuse Richard or anyone else of cowardice or troll-like behavior lest ye reveal trollish tendencies in yourself. (How many of the loudest Family Values / anti-gay legislators turn out to be adulterers and / or gay themselves?)

See, now THAT's a fine example of unsupported innuendo... some readers will emerge with a vague belief that you must be a gay, adulterous troll!

[Robert_Moriyama]

I apologize to Mark if he thought that I was accusing HIM of posting (or voting) under an alias. What I meant was that it seemed odd for someone who was so vehement about the unfairness of disqualifying a story after it had gone online to do something that seemed unfair.

On the other hand, that line about "You and Davidson I respect..." implies that he DOESN'T respect me... in which case the rules of karma (viz. the "Playing God" thread) may apply.

[kailhofer]

Well, I get back from a day of trying to find something nice for my wife that doesn't cost too much and find a letter from an old girlfriend and a 14-message thread about the rules for the challenges (17 by the time I could post this).

I'll leave it up to you as to which was more disconcerting.


Did you ever see a fight break out in the stands of a little league baseball game? Usually, it partly starts over some call that nobody liked, and then gets ugly. However, it mostly started because everybody involved loves the game and the players that made the play, and pride for the contest gets away from the crowd.

I love these challenges, too, folks. That's why they were my idea.

I make decisions based on the rules at the time. If you don't like something, suggest how to change the rules for the future so as to not have the confusion again. I might use the new version, and I might not.

But please, don't fight about it.

The rule penalty idea is interesting, but how would you word the rule so it's fair? There's a different amount of points for each story each contest. Sliding scale? Percent? How would you quantify one kind of infraction vs another? Sounds frightfully complicated and hard to explain or justify when announced.

These may not be the Olympics, but even the Olympics started with amateurs trying to be the best they could (well, sorta), and look at it now.

Yes, sometimes some people skip stories when they vote, and have since voting started. The next one will have a rule where if a voter skips a story (that wasn't the author's vote) they'll give sixes in that spot instead. I'm also in favor if an author doesn't vote for the other stories, they get a 10% deduction at the end. That way its not on me to artificially enter points.

Except when doing a historical fiction challenge or if it's specifically excepted, I don't think any famous or historical figures should be allowed. Basically, if they really lived or were copyrighted, they can't be in. As to settings I think any general setting, say New York, is ok, but not repeated specific settings like apartment 1408 from that Steven King movie, or something like 1313 Riverside Drive (ok used the first time, but then excluded by the "original" clause), with an exception for famous, unique place like the ISS, Space Shuttle Atlantis, The Brooklyn Bridge, etc.

Can anyone of you armchair lawyers find a hole in that? If so, how would you word it?

Nate

[kailhofer]

But Nate seems receptive to discussing the rules and seems to want feedback to improve the contest.

What? You mean I don't live to argue over calls? Inconceivable!

I'd love for them to be clear cut, but will probably never be, considering how creative everyone is in trying to find a way around them to make the next crazy idea one of you has work for the challenge instead of waiting until it fits another one better later. But, yes, I'd love to have something that gives less ambiguity without getting so big you need to check with your lawyer before you enter the thing. This is supposed to be fun, after all.

[kailhofer]

At the risk of being beaten about the head and shoulders and perhaps metaphorically being drawn and quartered (at least about the recent disqualification discussion) couldn't we just re-simplify the voting process?

That is to say, just those who want to vote can vote and vote for their favorite story only - and the story with the most votes wins? That was the old method, right?

To avoid the troll, the vote would be sent to Nate via PM and he wouldn't announce anything specific (I kind of liked his horse race method on this last challenge, however, and it was Troll-proof I believe) until he simply announces the winner and the final number of votes per story with names of the authors.

Put down those torches and clubs. My name is Frankensteen not Frankenstein.

J. B.

[the noise of a keyboard crumpling] But... they... ASKED... for... better feedback... than... the... poll... vote... [Anguished scream]

[Robert_Moriyama]

...On the other hand, that line about "You and Davidson I respect..." implies that he DOESN'T respect me... in which case the rules of karma (viz. the "Playing God" thread) may apply.

Robert,

I excluded you from the respect list, because you were mad at me at the time! When you are through being mad let me know and I'll put your name on the list.

(See...I used the smiley face to note I was kidding. Did I use the right one?)

Mark

Hmm... We probably need a Writers' Workshop topic on smiley selection. Perhaps if we added smileys with numeric subscripts, so you could clearly indicate the level of pleasure or displeasure (from spontaneous orgasm to spontaneous aneurysm).

Examples:

Mildly amused: -1

Extremely amused: -10

Mildly annoyed: -1

Contemplating mass murder: -666

As for whether I need to be on The List -- which is very short, so The Rest of Humanity should be offended! -- I wonder if I should take the Woody Allen (pre-Soon Yi) and not want to belong to any club that would have me as a member... (And you in the back, stop reciting synonyms for "member" and snickering.)

RM

[Robert_Moriyama]

.. Mark's comment quoted there could also have been a query along the lines of "what, the aliases have kept quiet so far in this topic?" instead of "what, Richard didn't use an alias?" as you evidently read it. I honestly think that a lot of unpleasantness could have been avoided here by simply noting that two interpretations of these words were possible.

That may have been what Mark intended, but my editor's ear would have expected "No aliasES this time?" if so. Youse gotta be precise in yer langwidge around me, or risk having me hear what youse ain't trying to say.

RM

[kailhofer]

Can we use New York?

Berlin in 1944?

Pompeii before Vesuvius?

Can we use Santa but not Gandalf?

Fine.

[area]Characters & Setting: No copyrighted characters or settings, or references thereto. Famous, non-copyrighted fictional characters like Santa, or religious figures such as the Devil, angels, or Thor, as supporting characters at best and at my discretion. The Wicked Witch and Dracula may be in the public domain, but don't expect me to allow them. No person that was ever a human being may be used as a character, but can be referred to, as in President Kennedy would appear there later that day. Characters, except as noted above, must be used in their original appearance only. All non-copyrighted settings are ok, so long as they were not previously used by you. Famous, unique sites like the International Space Station, the Oval Office, or the Brooklyn Bridge, etc. may be used over and again. No fan fiction or sequels, so don't bother putting your story in the Land of Oz or that great place you thought up three challenges ago. [/area]

Put your thinking caps on people. Does anyone see a hole in that? I used "was ever a human being" to exclude figures such as Christ or the Buddha because I really don't want someone to get offended. The last thing we need here is a religious dispute. In this version of the rules, Hitler would not be allowed.

Tell us what we can do and not risk you taking a single complaint from a single author--even though the rest of us say that Casey's story should have stood--and disqualifying it.

I don't give a damn how many people disagree or if only one person complained. If I think a protest is valid, I'll act on it. If not, I won't. There are good reasons for that. For example, I simply can't know all the characters or settings out there, so I may not recognize something being repeated or "borrowed", but someone else might. For that reason, disqualifications can and will happen again. Anybody unwilling to go along with that can start their own challenge.

Fer cryin' out loud, dude. It takes me hours to write a 1000 word flash. Please don't make me waste all that time and effort due to a misinterpretation (or reinterpretation) of the rules.

And since I only have a computer at work, that's hours spent off-the-clock at a place I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO LEAVE.

I've never written a flash piece that didn't take me at least two days, longer if you count in the "mull it over in your mind" phase. Not all together, of course, but spread out. The challenges themselves can take several days to figure, trying to decide if an idea is compelling enough, if it's too hard, or not hard enough. I've been trying to get Fridays challenge example figured out ever since I finished the last one, started over I don't know how many times, and it's still not more than a third done. That doesn't count in time setting up the voting announcements, spreadsheets, the form for "pasting", and, unfortunately, defending myself.

There's always the "write it on paper & just type it" option. I've done that more than a few times for these challenges.

I'm going to be in Madison again on the 21st.
Wanna meet? (I promise not to cancel, this time. . .really.)

Monday? I think I should be able to swing that. Let's work out the details in PM.

Nate

[kailhofer]

But to further clarify, what is your ruling on this example:

The main character of my story is President of the United States but is never referred to by name, just Mr. President. The setting is clearly fictionalized because there are science fiction elements to the story; there has been an alien invasion. The story is set in the 1960s and it is noted that the President is catholic and has a New England accent. When you ask me if the President in the story is a historical person, I say no, he is a fictional character that is based on my idealized version of a 1960s president.

I think much like the rules for libel can apply based on a description only, I view it similarly. If a character appears de facto to be Kennedy even though you give him a different name, I'm going to say no. Even if you say it's 1964, because given the setup mentioned, I'd assume you were trying to peddle an alternate timeline where Kennedy was still president. Readers are bound to picture Kennedy, giving an unfair advantage in the shortcut used.

Is that clear enough, or do I need to put it the official rule?

[kailhofer]

Are you going to outlaw using stereotypes in stories? Because they are a shortcut to developing characters.

No, obviously. Stereotypes are good for what we do. But saying you've got a New England accent, Catholic, U.S. President in the 1960s is more of a road map to a specific point than a stereotype.

[Robert_Moriyama]

So... I'm not defending Casey's story here, just using it as an example... based on this discussion, there wouldn't have been any way for Casey to "fix" his story as Mark suggested, for instance, by leaving Hitler's name off. It is Hitler in the story whether he is named or not. Being a painter, his obsession with Jews, his rise to power, would all act as a "road map" for the reader to assume it was Hitler, and that would be a rules violation. So there was really nothing Casey could have done to make this particular story acceptable?

Hero

I dunno. Not everybody knows all that stuff about 'Dolf's background; some people's image of Hitler derives mainly from the foaming-at-the-mouth madman depicted in the movies (viz. "Nein, nein, nein, nein!!" in "Inglourious Basterds") rather than the autobiographical books and movies that try to show how he became a monster. If Casey hadn't EXPLICITLY NAMED HIM, or had changed the context (the old Space Opera trick of replacing horses with rocket packs and six-shooters with blasters might have been sufficient) enough, the reader might never have made that specific leap.

Nate, how about it? If the setting was changed from a semi-historical one to the planet Arglebargle in the year 3739, and the name Hitler was omitted, would the story still have worked at all? Or did its impact depend on the flood of preconceptions that at least some of the readers had regarding the historical Hitler?

RM

[kailhofer]

So... I'm not defending Casey's story here, just using it as an example... based on this discussion, there wouldn't have been any way for Casey to "fix" his story as Mark suggested, for instance, by leaving Hitler's name off. It is Hitler in the story whether he is named or not. Being a painter, his obsession with Jews, his rise to power, would all act as a "road map" for the reader to assume it was Hitler, and that would be a rules violation. So there was really nothing Casey could have done to make this particular story acceptable?

Hero

I dunno. Not everybody knows all that stuff about 'Dolf's background; some people's image of Hitler derives mainly from the foaming-at-the-mouth madman depicted in the movies (viz. "Nein, nein, nein, nein!!" in "Inglourious Basterds") rather than the autobiographical books and movies that try to show how he became a monster. If Casey hadn't EXPLICITLY NAMED HIM, or had changed the context (the old Space Opera trick of replacing horses with rocket packs and six-shooters with blasters might have been sufficient) enough, the reader might never have made that specific leap.

Nate, how about it? If the setting was changed from a semi-historical one to the planet Arglebargle in the year 3739, and the name Hitler was omitted, would the story still have worked at all? Or did its impact depend on the flood of preconceptions that at least some of the readers had regarding the historical Hitler?

RM

I don't think it would have made any sense. Why would the Arglebargleans want to kill Jews, and why would the new hero, Gribnif, be able to do something about it himself? Who was he, anyway? I don't think reader or I would have drawn a good connection. If it was made up to be a parallel world enough that the reader can understand that, then clearly it's another Hitler and I hope I would be consistent enough to bar it.

Could Casey have fixed it? I can't think of any way that would have had the same impact. I mean, if it's Hitler's best friend who couldn't wait to tell him all about his idea at the next artist circle exchange/show-and-tell --is about the closest thing I can think of, but it's just not as good.

[kailhofer]

If I submitted a story to Robert, concerning a fictional conversation between Hitler, Mother Theresa and Stalin. . .he'd accept it. (If it was any good, of course.)

Why these rules in flash that don't apply to other fiction?

Never been too sure of this stuff. . .

Bill Wolfe[/size]

It's about trying to make this fair and even in a contest.

Everyone gets the same thousand words and the same conditions. For example, if one person goes and tells his story from the eyes of the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz, it's a lot harder for everyone else to compete when they have to invent characters and settings from scratch. That story has a built in advantage, and given that all stories are written well, that advantage would probably edge out some original ideas. The challenge after than, more people try to use similar shortcuts. After that, more. Next thing you know, the whole contest is all fan fiction, because it's the only way to win.

We're all friends, but the competition factor is making for better and better stories coming in. I'd hate to reverse that.

[kailhofer]

What I *think* that Nate is doing with these rules for the Flash Challenge is to
a) make the competition structured enough so that the writers have to think really hard about every word in their stories- thus turning out better stories,
b) teach the writers that *some* markets require submissions to obey arbitrary rules that only apply to that particular publication,
c) teach the writers that there *are* overall rules that apply to submissions to *most* markets,
d) keep writers from just copy/pasting excerpts from old stories in their back catalog...

No, you're completely wrong. I just like being difficult.

In fact, the only thing that I dislike about this debate is that I can no longer submit one idea that I had for a challenge to Nate. It would take a temporary lifting of some of the clarified rules to make the challenge work. My asking for that Special Dispensation, at this time, would/could make it look as if I were abusing my "Vast Editorial Powers"[sup][smcaps]TM[/smcaps][/sup] to undercut Nate's control over his own section of the zine. I don't do that. Each Editor has full control over their section, with only a few zine-wide policies in place. ("No FanFic" for example.)

Request away. If a rule has to suspended for a specific challenge, then we'll do that. When we do McCamy's idea for a famous-figure historical fiction challenge, it would be impossible to say no real-life characters, so that rule would be suspended.

So, if you've got an idea, I'm listening.

Nate

[Robert_Moriyama]

Where's the beef? - come on, now. YOU were thinking it too - and you know who you are!
Hurry Nate, we need another winter challenge or we need the December issue of the ezine!

The December / January edition will be online Any Day Now... featuring the conclusion of "New Columbia", plus two new novellas, 20 short stories, and 11 poems. Polish your reading glasses (or clean your contact lenses, or put in your eyedrops), line up your snacks and beverages, and get ready for a big whack o' Aphelion goodness!

RM

[kailhofer]

Hurry Nate, we need another winter challenge or we need the December issue of the ezine!

I am completely powerless over the zine. They don't let me see it early, or tell me when it's ready. My realm doesn't extend outside the Fun and Games folder, and even in that, I don't have any more access than you do. Maybe someday.

I'm still accepting challenges for this month & trying to figure out next month's. (It isn't easy thinking these things up and keeping them fun.) If you're really stuck, you could always try and see how much you can write of a story in 2 hours (without prep time) and post it. That might be fun.

[kailhofer]

The December / January edition will be online Any Day Now... featuring the conclusion of "New Columbia", plus two new novellas, 20 short stories, and 11 poems. Polish your reading glasses (or clean your contact lenses, or put in your eyedrops), line up your snacks and beverages, and get ready for a big whack o' Aphelion goodness!

RM

Oh, be honest. Any day now, give or take a MONTH.

[Robert_Moriyama]

The December / January edition will be online Any Day Now... featuring the conclusion of "New Columbia", plus two new novellas, 20 short stories, and 11 poems. Polish your reading glasses (or clean your contact lenses, or put in your eyedrops), line up your snacks and beverages, and get ready for a big whack o' Aphelion goodness!

RM

Oh, be honest. Any day now, give or take a MONTH.

Hey, you declined the chance to do, say, my job... which occupied about 20 or 30 hours this month. Maybe I should resign and let you take over, now that you have time to spare

[kailhofer]

I would like to see a Flash section added alongside the Serials, Shorts, Poetry, and Series sections. As I see it, each new issue would have a Flash page featuring the challenge stories from the previous month, just for those readers who never seem to find their way into the Forums. The formatting each month is easy, even I can manage it It only takes a few minutes of swapping paragraph HTML tags for line break HTML tags, deleting the HEAD and BODY HTML tags, and making sure the BOLD, ITALICS, UNDERLINE, etc. HTML tags are in the right places, then saving the result as a .TXT file that the Webmaven's page template files can call up and display.

Personally, I favor just putting up last month's winner, a statement of what dates the next challenge will run (such as stories accepted Dec. 11-23, voting 23-29 & the next one Jan. 8-21, voting 21-27), a link to the Fun & Games folder, and also a link to the forum's Flash Index, where the stories all reside. However, wouldn't the authors have to know in advance that winning means publication, for rights reasons? I mean, I don't think McCamy would mind from last month, but an author needs to know that in advance, don't you think?

By keeping it last month's winner, there's no worry about commenting on a currently voted on story, plus there's more incentive to try and win.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Nate wrote:

However, wouldn't the authors have to know in advance that winning means publication, for rights reasons?

Technically I don't see any difference from a publication point of view. If its up on the web for others to read it's being published whether its on a seperate page or just in the index.

Hero

It's from the fine print:

By entering this challenge you are technically granting Aphelion: The Webzine of Science Fiction and Fantasy perpetual electronic rights only to post and archive your challenge entry.

Writers are giving consent to be posted [implied in the forum, since it says posted not published] by entering, so to do more would require more consent. When someone submits to Robert, he or she knows it's for potential publication in the zine, not in a separate Aphelion e-book.

Everyone involved may be perfectly fine with inclusion in the zine. I'm just saying that this is not what the authors submitted for, and it's an important distinction, since they own their work.

[kailhofer]

What I intended was, for example, that stories from the February challenge here in the Forums would show up posted in the March issue, long after the voting had closed and the winner picked. No different than Nate posting all the entrants in the Forums after the challenge has run it's course, but with a tad wider access.

Y'all hate the idea of having people who don't come to the forums reading your Flash pieces a month after the contest is over?

Dan

What I intended was a level of control over what gets published, if nothing else, for liability reasons. If someone were to submit something in one of the rated R challenges that would be very inappropriate to show at the "top level" of the zine's navigation, there's no stopping it. For example, there's no rule against submitting a story titled "F*cking My Dead Sister For Fun and Profit" (even if that's not what the story is about). Absolutely horrific notion, but there's nothing to protect underage readers from even seeing the title (and they're not required to put the asterisk in there, either). There's no editing of flash entries beyond minor formatting flaws. At least if the story exists a few layers down in the hierarchy, there's a chance to protect the innocent and keep you from being sued.

I'm all for free speech and for publicity for the Flashers, but the winner (with our new voting system) is going to be a damn good story, and should be the best foot forward to bring people in to our little realm here. Since this is a forum-run activity, we want them to come to the forum.

You want to be in the zine, be the better writer and work for it. And maybe get a little lucky, too. That seems like the best policy.

Nate

PS, I love the idea of a Flash button, and if we're looking at changes, I'd like to suggest a new forum area that requires a password or to be a member of a group to see. In there we post stories we're working on for feedback and help from each other. If there's a password or some level of restricted access to see it, it doesn't count as publication. That's a lot of how Baen's or Absolute Write's forums always worked. That way, we can all help each other in projects we're working on, and maybe all get ahead.

[Robert_Moriyama]

In effect we could set up a writers' workshop for which you would have to register... The online workshop sites I've seen require you to earn points by posting critiques of some number of stories in order to be able to post your own work and receive critiques from others. Dunno how one would administer something like that... I don't recall seeing anything in the documentation for this system that would do it automatically. Then again, I don't know if we really want to formalize the process that much. ("Sorry, Mr. Jones, you're two critiques short of your quota this month. You'll have to comment on a couple of stories before you can post this one...")

On the other other hand, there is nothing to say that a workshop mechanism would have to be linked to the Forum at all, or subject to the limitations of the phpBB environment. (Except, of course, the headaches for Rob Wynne.)

[kailhofer]

In effect we could set up a writers' workshop for which you would have to register... The online workshop sites I've seen require you to earn points by posting critiques of some number of stories in order to be able to post your own work and receive critiques from others. Dunno how one would administer something like that... I don't recall seeing anything in the documentation for this system that would do it automatically. Then again, I don't know if we really want to formalize the process that much. ("Sorry, Mr. Jones, you're two critiques short of your quota this month. You'll have to comment on a couple of stories before you can post this one...")

On the other other hand, there is nothing to say that a workshop mechanism would have to be linked to the Forum at all, or subject to the limitations of the phpBB environment. (Except, of course, the headaches for Rob Wynne.)

This is obviously a separate topic, but I don't think it needs to be that structured. Most places where I've seen this used there's always someone willing to read and say what they did or didn't like. Presumably, they pitch in so that later when one of their own pieces is presented, people can return the favor, but realistically, I don't believe that's true. Nevertheless, it seems to work as far as getting people feedback on stories so they can get better before being submitted to bigger markets (and some to Aphelion, I'm sure).

In something like this, a person starts a thread. In it, they post their story/novel in however many increments it takes, and then people post comments. Maybe the person uses them or not, but then either submits with changes somewhere else, or puts up a version 2 (or 3, or 4) for more comments. Usually too frequent updates get no comments, so things create their own flow.

Practically speaking, someone like me could post my novel manuscript. Folks (who logged in with the password or that joined the user subgroup) read it when they have time, find obvious glaring errors ("Hey, wrong character name in Chapter 6, spelling errors here and here, etc."), or maybe give constructive criticism ("Try moving chapter 8 behind chapter 9 for more impact.", or "Your villain just doesn't seem scary. What about having him do...") I hopefully get a better story in the next rewrite, and finally get some agent/publisher to say yes for a change. Readers get enjoyment from the stories, and get to feel good about helping.

You, Robert, (since you've never mentioned a novel) could take something like a Majius sequel, run it by the faithful here for suggestions, then make changes and post it in an issue. Your story is still read again by the faithful because they're interested in seeing what changed, but hopefully winds up being an improved piece. Whosoever joins the user subset with access becomes in essence a first reader, which is a resource you didn't have available to you.

That's it in a nutshell.

[kailhofer]

Nate, I'm not disagreeing with you about the flash participants' rights to their stories or the fact that there is a different type of editorial control over the regular sections of the zine and the flash contest. Everything that is submitted to the flash contest that is within the rules of the competition gets posted; the other editors presumable reject works that don't meet a certain standard of quality. It's just that if a story is available online for reading, particularly when it is indexed by you after the competition, and when Robert is posting a link to the winning story in the short stories section every month, I think technically those stories are published. You can say it is just being "posted" but I think editors from other publications are going to consider that first electronic publication right used up.

Yes, you are correct. Legally they are published. I'm saying there are in fact 2 different forms of "published". First there's the legal version, which all of these stories in the forum are. Second there is the more empirical version, where you can demonstrate in the "Look Mom, here's my story at this webzine!" sort of way. People relate to that far more than in a forum.

Your concern about protecting young readers from R-rated stories is a straw man. There is nothing that prevents them from accessing those types of stories now in the forum. The index you've created is indexed by Google and other search engines, so it is possible somebody could stumble on Aphelion by finding a link directly to the flash stories in the forum and not enter via the "top level" of the zine, and again, with Robert's publication every month of a link to the competition winner, there is already representation of the flash stories at the upper level of the zine anyway.

The argument would be different if the forum was restricted and your points would be valid ones. But the forum is not restricted now.

It's not a straw man. This is going to sound a bit nebulous, but everyone knows there is a difference between finding a story on the internet in a search and finding it in the index of a magazine. There is an unwritten agreement between any publication and a reader that says the reader will come and read stories that the magazine has selected for them, because the reader puts trust that the stories were put through some manner of quality control process (that the reader agrees to based on prior reading experience or the zine's appearance) to find the best story and protect them from, well, crap or something offensive to the reader.

In my opinion a person searching the internet, or looking down through layers of forum, is more engaged in an active process, one in which they are more steeled to finding inappropriate choices. The one clicking on a potential new Flash button here, does not expect to find (using my earlier example) the story about doing one's deceased sibling. It violates an unspoken, yet sacred, trust.

I don't understand why while you normally seem to promote the flash competition you are sounding like you want it more obscured in this case.

It's about my pride in Aphelion and the quality of work I think it shows.

I'm sure you and many of the other writers believe your stories are worthy of inclusion in the zine. You'd be right. Many of the flash pieces are, in fact, just as good or even better than some stories in the zine, or in paying zines, for that matter. However, they are not all. Some are first pieces from people who have no idea what they're doing yet, and it shows. Still, that's ok in the forum challenge, because helping people figure out what's what is a part of what the challenges are for--helping and encouraging creativity in a positive framework.

I have to be concerned with more than the regulars. I also have to think about potentialities. Posting all the entries in effect creates a conduit where anyone can potentially publish anything with little restriction or regard to just how... ahem, not very good... it might be. Call me a snob if you like, but I think an Aphelion reader deserves better than that.

Absolutely what I'm describing would limit publicity (and to a minor extent, access) to the flash stories, even those marvelous gems so many of you have written, but I think it's necessary to protect the innocent and also Aphelion's good name.

Nate

[kailhofer]

But that's the problem. If you post something in a little corner of the web, where only the faithful read it and can crit it - is it already published? Kaihofer is talking about putting a novel on to be critiqued, is it then published and can't be given to an agent for sale?
When I post a flash fiction story in a contest, it's because I want to run it past the group and see what kind of reaction it gets. If it's really favorable, I might decide to develop it further, into a short story. But I wouldn't do that if it's already counted as 'published'.

If a thing is posted online where only a restricted group of people can see it, then it was considered peer review, not publication, as I understand it.

Not being a lawyer, as far as I know, these challenges as they are done, to the open public, are considered published. You use up your first electronic rights by submitting. It's in the fine print in the rules under 'legal stuff'.

[kailhofer]

I understand your argument about quality, and the point that not every entry in the flash challenge is necessarily going to be of a quality on par with the rest of Aphelion. I think that is a slightly different argument than you were making earlier about protecting young impressionable types from R-rated content. But maybe in this case your example just directed me away from your actual point.

No misleading was intended. It was a multi-pronged strategy. Both are applicable, whether you believe the argument or not.

But essentially you're relegating all the good flash stories to the Aphelion basement because of the company they keep.

What's wrong with the basement? Basements are safe. They are a great place to experiment with creativity away from prying eyes. Many wonderful inventions started in basements and garages. I spent many of my formative years in a corner of the basement, and I turned out fine.

In my mind you can't have it both ways. You can't be promoting the flash contest by talking about how great the stories are and about how many hits the index thread has had on the one hand and then on the other hand say that it should stay buried in the forum because someone might be put off by the lack of quality in some of the stories. It is a conundrum.

Truly, I must be an enigma in a handsome wrapper. I see no conflict.

Just because one lives in a basement does not make him 'buried'. It is simply where he lives. This is a forum-based challenge, and this is where it lives. Following the metaphor, a single flash piece behind the button is like a billboard for a great bar in the lower level of a building. The fact that it is not on the main floor does not keep people from walking in. Do they enjoy the experience less? I think not. Does it make it any less of a great bar? No. It just means you have to walk down to get in.

Maybe you should just stick to promoting the flash challenge itself and not archive the stories at all. I don't want it that way, but it seems like it would be less contradictory.

I'm afraid I won't fit into the little box you seem to have mapped out for me. Perhaps it is my expanding waistline. I will continue to draw attention to the challenges in either case.

Or maybe you should go along with Dan's suggestion of having the flash button, but be an editor and select some of the stories from each contest that you think get over the quality hurdle. I'm sure that would piss someone off, but the stories that were good enough would get the attention they deserve. You would have to do this yourself though. You can't rely on the voting because, as offensive as it sounds, the story titled "F*cking My Dead Sister For Fun and Profit" could be the winner, and then what are you going to do. Even the flash winner might not meet the quality standard you are talking about. So the only way it would work is if you acted as an editor and exerted editorial control over what would get selected.

Hmm. You're right. Even the most offensive piece of tripe could technically win. I'd hope not, but I foresee it could.

The story will have to be a story of my choosing as Flash Editor. That's bound to annoy some, especially if I don't pick the winner, but it's the only way to assure quality and protect the innocent. Actually, the story I vote for (or rate most highly) only wins around half the time, so I'll have to come to grips with that.

If many of the entries in the contest are as good as you say they are, then the regular writers should be heeding bottomdweller's words. They should think twice about submitting, because a great story might be posted right next to a filthy ball of word crap and no one is going to find the great story because its buried in the forum where only one of the usual suspects will ever see it.

You already submit now, without it appearing in the zine. It was never even a suggestion that it might be, and yet the challenge was still good enough to enter. Are you now going to leave if you don't get your appearance in the zine?

Besides, I haven't heard any more since Dan put up his post, so for all I know, the idea was killed in committee anyway. Is the zine waiting on me? If so, I don't know it is.

[kailhofer]

Yes. You say "...[a]ll non-copyrighted settings are ok, so long as they were not previously used by you." At first glance, this indicates that I can only use New York once. However, "[f]amous, unique sites like the International Space Station, the Oval Office, or the Brooklyn Bridge, etc. may be used over and again."; presumably this is an exception to the above.

What exactly counts as a "famous, unique site"? Is there a maximum size to a "site"? New York? America? Earth? What about a real place that's not famous; can that only be used once? And how do I know if a real place counts as "unique" or not?

Honesty, I see no way in a flash piece the entire city of New York can be your setting. There isn't enough room in only 1000 words. The city may be a backdrop, but your actual setting is bound to be an apartment, a hotdog stand, the 12th Precinct police station, etc. Think more of a setting as a particular apartment, a house, the 25th story of one of the Twin Towers, etc., rather than the city in which the setting is based.

You could create a fictitious shop next to Nathan's hotdogs on Coney Island, and that would be ok. You could pick and intersection of two real streets in NY, like 126th & Amsterdam in Harlem (other than it was one block from a setting used in the movie Die Hard With a Vengeance). That's a real place, but not famous. You just couldn't do two separate stories there, because that could be construed as a sequel.

As for unique, there's only one Eiffel Tower. Only one Hoover Dam. Only one Grand Canyon. Only one Tranquility Base on the Moon. Only one Dubai Tower. Only one Great Pyramid. Hopefully, you can see the pattern. Famous, and unique. If not, you can always PM me the setting you want to use and I'll let you know.

As it says in the rule, the ISS is okay for repeat visits. We're largely SF writers, and the ISS is simply too important a site to limit the number of visits to it, considering that much of future exploration of space is bound to have contact with it. If you wanted, and had the skill, every single story you submitted in the future could be set in the Grand Canyon, and it would be passable according to the rules.

Where does a site stop? That's a fair question. I'm going by the rule of thumb of where does the usual description of a site stop. That is, generally, one only refers to the entire Grand Canyon, or the whole Eiffel Tower. One rarely sees the elevator in the tower split apart in describing it on a tourist map. I've never seen someone describe the King's Chamber without saying it's in the Great Pyramid of Giza. Beating the NY analogy to death, one doesn't have to say the Empire State Building in NY City, because everyone knows it's in NYC. One is no longer a required subset of the other.

Does that make it more clear?

Nate

[kailhofer]

But let us say I write a story about two aliens in 2020 standing on the corner of 126th and Amsterdam chatting about how quiet it is now that all the humans are dead. Now assume that I write another story six months later set in 2021 about two humans discussing how the city has been so crowded (with humans) for the past ten years. The second story is clearly not a sequel of the first, yet it (presumably coincidentally) takes place at the same longitude and latitude. Would the second story be disallowed due to the existence of the first story?

Luckily, the second story doesn't sound likely to qualify for any challenge here, since there is little to no speculative fiction element, and then I wouldn't have to make a distinction. The obvious question would be why would you want to put two stories in the exact same place twice? To me, that implies that there is something continuing on, thus a sequel.

Regardless, no setting can be used twice, unless it's in the famous & unique category, so just don't do it. Okay?

As for unique, there's only one Eiffel Tower. Only one Hoover Dam. Only one Grand Canyon. Only one Tranquility Base on the Moon. Only one Dubai Tower. Only one Great Pyramid. Hopefully, you can see the pattern.

There's also only one corner of 126th and Harlem. There's only one Tweebuffelsmeteenskootdoodgeskietfontein. There's only one of everywhere.

But there are many other street corners that many be in almost every respect the same. One amongst many is not unique. There is only one Grand Canyon on planet Earth.

Honestly, I don't understand why this is such an issue.

[kailhofer]

Hmmm. I think I get the idea; if I can change the location and have hardly any change in the story, then it's not unique.

I'm not sure that's right. If your story is about people and not a place, changing the setting shouldn't really change the story all that much. I could have a gunfight between two former friends now turned rivals for the love of a woman in a space western, and then put them in the Grand Canyon. No real difference, but the Grand Canyon is still unique.

It's not really a big issue at all. You did ask whether or not anyone could spot a possible problem with the new rules, and so I'm poking at them in order to see if there are any potential problems sitting in ambush, waiting. That's all.

I guess that's understandable, considering recent events. It's made me a bit gunshy about saying a story is ok, checking against the rules much closer than before.

Nate

[kailhofer]

Hmmm. I think I get the idea; if I can change the location and have hardly any change in the story, then it's not unique.

I'm not sure that's right. If your story is about people and not a place, changing the setting shouldn't really change the story all that much. I could have a gunfight between two former friends now turned rivals for the love of a woman in a space western, and then put them in the Grand Canyon. No real difference, but the Grand Canyon is still unique.

Then I'm afraid I still don't know how to tell if a location counts as unique or not. Is it always unique if it is famous?

No, but usually.

Chicago has an elevated train for it's mass transit rail, called the 'EL' (or 'L'). It has significant name recognition to the point were millions even outside Chicago would recognize the name, but it's basically a city subway. It's even not unique in being an elevated train, because both Milwaukee and St. Louis have elevated trains, I think. Los Angeles' Red Line subway was made famous in the movie Volcano, but it's still not really any different from the Red Line subway in Boston. It's just a subway.

So, things can be famous without being unique, but they usually are.