he said

Post by **kailhofer** » December 10, 2005, 12:45:46 PM

I'm editing a story I decided to try over at the Slush Conferences at Baen's Bar. Over there, you can change things based on comments & submit it again without penalty (or so they say). One of the slush editor's comments was that I didn't just use "said". I use ordered, noticed, grumbled, protested, etc. In fact I used "said" only 3 times in the whole story. The editor's opinion was that readers are annoyed by that. So I'm changing them. But I hate doing it. I hate it. I hate it. I've heard that 18th & 19th century authors would strive not to use the same words on a whole page if possible. I like that. I would do that if I could get away with it. I'd like to give the reading public enough credit that their vocabularies are big enough to figure it out, and that they don't have to stop reading and decipher every time they see something other than "said". Those other terms give a lot of insight to how the phrase was said, or meant to be received. It feels like tying my hands, like I need to "dumb" it down. [Sigh.] But she's the editor I'd have to please, so I'm changing it. But I hate doing it! Once I finish that, I can move on the much harder task of simplifying my excessive description and word choices in the opening. (Silly me. I thought people could handle an 8th grade level opener. What was I thinking? >:() Nate (I know. I know... Get artsy after I'm famous...)

Post by **kailhofer** » December 10, 2005, 03:42:46 PM

However, I urge caution in compromising too much. If you are really THAT unhappy with it, you shouldn't change your writing; perhaps this is not a market for you. Then again, as an exercise, make the changes and reread the story. See where you can make revisions elsewhere that elicit your characters' moods, intentions, etc. You may like what you see.

Hmm... Let's see... major fiction and fantasy quarterly that pays pro rates or better, run by the same people who publish a lot of books... Or I could stick to my guns and become a hit sensation 50 years after I'm dead... You're right! Why would I want success now? ;) Seriously, although I have endeavoured to persevere for more than 20 years, there comes a time when you have to bend to the whim of the masses if you ever want to earn some dough. And yes, admittedly, I just might learn a thing or two while rewriting that could help.

As for not using the same word on the same page, well, I think that's potentially a massive waste of creative energy in terms of killing a writer's rhythm.

I guess that depends on one's natural vocabulary and speech patterns. However unlikely it may sound, I converse rather much like I write. Thanks for the encouragement! Nate

December 11, 2005, 02:22:47 PM

...But even Stephen King advises against using too many 'descriptive' dialogue words (I think) in his "On Writing". I must admit, there are times when you just GOTTA throw in a 'growled' or 'snarled' to indicate how an otherwise ambiguous line is delivered. However, if you are describing facial expressions and body language, or using omniscient third person so you can indicate mood directly, even this may be unnecessary. Nate, as the King of Minutely Detailed Sensory Impressions, should never need to use anything other than "said" -- the reader should know who is angry or frightened or whatever by scent alone! ;) Robert M.

Post by **kailhofer** » December 13, 2005, 09:26:44 PM

Nate,

Can you give us an example of the story or perhaps a different one where you replace "said" with other types of attributions?

All right. Here is one spot where it bothered me, because "said" wasn't what I meant each time. It's not that many instances in this clipping, and it's out of context, but it gave me trouble. I'll post it the old way underneath, too. NEW WAY: ...This spell was not like that. It drew its energy from the person casting it, from her own life essence. If she could not pull enough magical energy from the world around her to replenish her reserves, the spell would exhaust her physically as well as steal her ability to cast spells for a long time--perhaps months, but this did not worry her. Her concern was that, if unstopped, the energy draw could spread out from her to the plants and trees around them, and cause them to wither, die, and turn to dust, even up to a half mile away. People, like Will, or even animals inside the effect would tire and fall asleep instantly. Once started, there could be no stopping the energy draw until its demands were met. Closing her eyes, she tried to force everything out her mind except how to pull in the energy of the world around her. She raised her arms over her head and pointed her palms toward the tree. She said, "Accersitus phasma!" The sounds of the world around Annie faded, becoming distant and distorted as if she was hearing them through the side of an inner tube. Warmth drained from her toes and fingertips, making them feel like they were blocks of ice. Her body shuddered, chilled to the bone. Her thoughts were sluggish, and it was hard to concentrate. "Accersitus phasma!" she said, trying to breathe deep and force her blood to her extremities. Pain stabbed at Annie from her hands and feet, like frostbite. Her mind reeled, trying to pull energy in from the world around her. She could feel it was there, if she could just grab hold of it. Her face felt like ice was forming on her lips and chin from her breath. "Accersitus phasma!" Annie said, panting. The energy from the earth below was not strong enough and her focus flailed desperately, trying to find some source of energy that she could latch onto. She searched the sky, the hill in the distance, her truck, and their belongings. Annie felt herself losing consciousness. There! In the trees there was strong magic. She pulled at it, feeling the magic flow into her. Warmth, delicious warmth, flooded her body. The sounds of the world were now sharp and detailed, more clear than they had been before she cast the spell. Her mind worked again, channelling the energy into the work before her. She opened her eyes. The young witch spoke again, but this time her voice was strangly amplifed, deep and loud. "ACCERSITUS PHASMA!"... OLD WAY: ...This spell was not like that. It drew its energy from the person casting it, from her own life essence. If she could not pull enough magical energy from the world around her to replenish her reserves, the spell would exhaust her physically as well as steal her ability to cast spells for a long time--perhaps months, but this did not worry her. Her concern was that, if unstopped, the energy draw could spread out from her to the plants and trees around them, and cause them to wither, die, and turn to dust, even up to a half mile away. People, like Will, or even animals inside the effect would tire and fall asleep instantly. Once started, there could be no stopping the energy draw until its demands were met. Closing her eyes, she tried to force everything out her mind except how to pull in the energy of the world around her. She raised her arms over her head and pointed her palms toward the tree. She commanded, “Accersitus phasma!” The sounds of the world around Annie faded, becoming distant and distorted as if she was hearing them through the side of an inner tube. Warmth drained from her toes and fingertips, making them feel like they were blocks of ice. Her body shuddered, chilled to the bone. Her thoughts were sluggish, and it was hard to concentrate. “Accersitus phasma!” she repeated, trying to breathe deep and force her blood to her extremities. Pain stabbed at Annie from her hands and feet, like frostbite. Her mind reeled, trying to pull energy in from the world around her. She could feel it was there, if she could just grab hold of it. Her face felt like ice was forming on her lips and chin from her breath. “Accersitus phasma!” Annie panted. The energy from the earth below was not strong enough and her focus flailed desperately, trying to find some source of energy that she could latch onto. She searched the sky, the hill in the distance, her truck, and their belongings. Annie felt herself losing consciousness. There! In the trees there was strong magic. She pulled at it, feeling the magic flow into her. Warmth, delicious warmth, flooded her body. The sounds of the world were now sharp and detailed, more clear than they had been before she cast the spell. Her mind worked again, channelling the energy into the work before her. She opened her eyes. The young witch spoke again, but this time her voice was strangly amplifed, deep and loud. “ACCERSITUS PHASMA!”... I couldn't start out with ordering or shouting, since the speech as to grow in intensity as it goes. I dunno. Maybe it's better, and maybe it's not. I struggled with it, but now I know it's because I didn't have a cabin in the woods in Maine. :) Nate

Post by **kailhofer** » February 13, 2006, 06:48:27 PM

I think a series of quote marks can show that people are speaking... so you only need a "John said" every third or fourth line, just so remind the reader who is currently on the podium.

Then 4 "said" can cover almost a page of dialogue.

Then if you want the emphasis, one of the third line indicators is a "mused" or "said, absently".

Well, I can't argue with the results. I changed all the "saids" and otherwise "dumbed" things down. That is, changed my uppity high-fallootin talk to something more like regular folks... ...And, lo and behold, was promptly asked to send them an rtf of the story. I have been waiting impatiently for a Yes, No, or Rewrite notice from Baen editor and author Eric Flint since Jan. 2. There's nothing to celebrate yet, but clearly "he said" is much better if one ever wishes to get pro rates someday. Nate

Post by **kailhofer** » February 18, 2006, 12:31:11 AM

Scary. Truly, Horribly, Fingernails-On-Blackboard Screechin Scary.

A humble little remark o' mine, assisting the CAREER of Nate, MD. (Minor Deity.) (Somewhere on the pantheon next to Minor Deity of Fruit Salad Availability and Minor Deity of $2.27 Gasoline).

Dang. I was going for Minor Diety of Potato Salad Consumption. But all the good ones were taken... Nate

Aphelion

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